A friend on Facebook posted this little ditty on Joyce Meyer and I, of course, shared it on my own page and then thought... Hmph. Let's blog this one.
I'm not a huge Joyce Meyer fan. I don't have anything against her, she's just not really my type. I'm more of a Beth Moore person. For as often as I say it like I see it, I like the Truth fed to me in gentle spoonfuls, and Joyce isn't really gentle. I also see Beth Moore as more of a Bible teacher, and Joyce Meyer as a pep-talk-giver. It's just a matter of preference. And, yes, I realize how ironic it is that I'm saying this. I fight a regular battle against my own snarky personality, and yet I can't stand it when snark is preached from a stage.
I've been a Christian for 20 years. I've spoken in churches, published a book, worked with well-known believers, and have reached one conclusion: it doesn't matter who you are, if you are a "public Christian," some people are going to have it in for you. Everyone thinks they have the literal translation of God's Word, but they don't. If that were the case, there would be no denominations, nor would there be a divide between Catholic and Protestant churches. (Of course, if you're Catholic... nevermind.) Someone is always going to believe you are a heretic.
Now that you've read that little prelude, let's tear this CARM article apart, shall we? I'm not going to touch on every issue because it's late and I'm too tired, but some of this has got to be responded to.
I've watched a lot of Joyce Meyer and I've never once gotten the impression that she is a "name-it-and-claim-it" believer. I would not be watching if I thought she was. But some people who are sick ARE so because they're in sin. EXAMPLE: drug addicts. When I say this, I DO NOT MEAN THAT GOD "GIVES" PEOPLE SICKNESS BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING DRUGS OR COMMITTING ANY OTHER TYPE OF SIN. What I mean is that actions have consequences. We either choose life in Christ, or death in the world. God gives us guidelines to live by because THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.
I can think of plenty examples of someone turning down the opportunity for healing. Drug rehab. Medication. Both perfect examples of healing that must be "claimed" in order to receive it. God heals people outright all the time, with no participation necessary. Sometimes, it is offered and must be accepted.
And when you think about it, salvation itself - the ultimate healing - must be claimed. If we choose not to accept Christ as our Savior, we are rejecting that healing.
a) Christ's death on the cross was NOT God's wrath for the sin of man. In which case... it was completely unnecessary in the first place.
b) I realize that the term "born-again" refers to a rebirth of the spirit, but here the author is splitting hairs. I never sat down with Joyce Meyer and asked her what she meant here, but I think we should at least CONSIDER the possibility that she meant Jesus went from being condemned to death for the sins of man, to being seated at the right hand of God.
As far as Jesus descending into Hell... I don't know that I believe that, either. However, a lot of people also believe that the Rapture is biblical, but it is actually a concept creature by a preacher during the 1800s. This doesn't make people total heretics, it's makes them misinformed. This is where it gets fishy for me. I'll let you read and decide for yourself.
But - pardon the pun - I'm going to play devil's advocate here, too. We know Hell is a "lake of fire." But what makes it even more terrifying? THE ABSENCE OF GOD. The Bible says Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross... but doesn't say He DIDN'T descend into Hell. And when the Son of God cries out, My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"... it makes you wonder.
There is also a rather obscure verse in the New Testament (can't remember it right now) that refers to Christ preaching to the spirits in prison after He died on the cross.
My brain is fried for now. More later, maybe.
Pin It
I'm not a huge Joyce Meyer fan. I don't have anything against her, she's just not really my type. I'm more of a Beth Moore person. For as often as I say it like I see it, I like the Truth fed to me in gentle spoonfuls, and Joyce isn't really gentle. I also see Beth Moore as more of a Bible teacher, and Joyce Meyer as a pep-talk-giver. It's just a matter of preference. And, yes, I realize how ironic it is that I'm saying this. I fight a regular battle against my own snarky personality, and yet I can't stand it when snark is preached from a stage.
I've been a Christian for 20 years. I've spoken in churches, published a book, worked with well-known believers, and have reached one conclusion: it doesn't matter who you are, if you are a "public Christian," some people are going to have it in for you. Everyone thinks they have the literal translation of God's Word, but they don't. If that were the case, there would be no denominations, nor would there be a divide between Catholic and Protestant churches. (Of course, if you're Catholic... nevermind.) Someone is always going to believe you are a heretic.
Now that you've read that little prelude, let's tear this CARM article apart, shall we? I'm not going to touch on every issue because it's late and I'm too tired, but some of this has got to be responded to.
Joyce Meyer was born on June 4, 1943. She is married, has four children, and lives outside of St. Louis, Missouri. She runs the Joyce Meyer Ministries organization (joycemeyer.org). When examining the site's statement of faith we are glad to see an affirmation of the Trinity, that man is a sinner, that without Jesus we can have no relationship with God, that salvation is a free gift, and eternal hell of conscious damnation. There is a concern with the statement on "divine healing," since there are so many aberrant groups that also affirm divine healing but say Christians must claim it and people who are sick are in sin. However, I am not aware of what Meyer's position is on this.
I've watched a lot of Joyce Meyer and I've never once gotten the impression that she is a "name-it-and-claim-it" believer. I would not be watching if I thought she was. But some people who are sick ARE so because they're in sin. EXAMPLE: drug addicts. When I say this, I DO NOT MEAN THAT GOD "GIVES" PEOPLE SICKNESS BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING DRUGS OR COMMITTING ANY OTHER TYPE OF SIN. What I mean is that actions have consequences. We either choose life in Christ, or death in the world. God gives us guidelines to live by because THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.
I can think of plenty examples of someone turning down the opportunity for healing. Drug rehab. Medication. Both perfect examples of healing that must be "claimed" in order to receive it. God heals people outright all the time, with no participation necessary. Sometimes, it is offered and must be accepted.
And when you think about it, salvation itself - the ultimate healing - must be claimed. If we choose not to accept Christ as our Savior, we are rejecting that healing.
The Joyce Meyer Ministry takes in a great deal of money. She travels in a private jet and has several multimillion dollar homes.
I don't know that much about CARM. But I can't help but think they tanked their own credibility by mentioning Joyce Meyer's private jet before even getting to the biblical stuff they disagree with. Would it matter if Joyce Meyer drove a Geo Metro or had her own spaceship? This is completely irrelevant."While Meyer's previous salary is unknown, a recent series of investigative articles in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch revealed Meyer's ministry purchased for Joyce and Dave a $2 million home, a $10 million private jet, and houses worth another $2 million for the couple's children, who also work for the ministry. The articles also outlined Meyer's recent personal purchases, including a $500,000 vacation home. Meyer, 60, lives in Fenton, Missouri, near St. Louis." (1/1/2004, http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/januaryweb-only/1-19-13.0.html)
Having a lot or a little money is neither good nor bad. If she has earned it all fairly through her work, fine. Nevertheless, this article will focus on her teaching, not on her finances. Let's take a look at scripture, then Joyce Meyer's teachings.Having a lot or a little money is neither good nor bad... and yet it was pointed out pretty early on in the piece.
If the Bible says that even Paul was checked by scripture, and that we are not to exceed scripture's teaching, then aren't we obligated to judge what Mrs. Meyer says against the word of God? Of course we are. It is not enough to just believe what she says, no matter how good the words are or how well she presents them. Let's not be taken in by a public figure who is confident, assertive, and appears to be biblical. Our duties as Christians include biblical discernment - which can only be done by examining what she says and comparing it with scripture.Fair enough. Can't argue with that. Same goes for everyone who teaches the Word.
Jesus was born again: "The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neKsa_74w7k&feature=related)
A. Response: This is just plain wrong. Being born again means to be saved from the wrath of God for a person's sins (Eph. 2:1-3), to have a new birth (John 3:3), and to be regenerated (2 Cor. 5:17). Mrs. Meyer is simply wrong biblically. Why does she teach this? It can only be because she has bought into many of the errors of the Positive Confession movement where it is sometimes said that Jesus lost his divine nature, went to hell, finished the atonement in hell, and was born again! This is a serious error since it implies that Jesus needed to be changed...
a) Christ's death on the cross was NOT God's wrath for the sin of man. In which case... it was completely unnecessary in the first place.
b) I realize that the term "born-again" refers to a rebirth of the spirit, but here the author is splitting hairs. I never sat down with Joyce Meyer and asked her what she meant here, but I think we should at least CONSIDER the possibility that she meant Jesus went from being condemned to death for the sins of man, to being seated at the right hand of God.
As far as Jesus descending into Hell... I don't know that I believe that, either. However, a lot of people also believe that the Rapture is biblical, but it is actually a concept creature by a preacher during the 1800s. This doesn't make people total heretics, it's makes them misinformed. This is where it gets fishy for me. I'll let you read and decide for yourself.
But - pardon the pun - I'm going to play devil's advocate here, too. We know Hell is a "lake of fire." But what makes it even more terrifying? THE ABSENCE OF GOD. The Bible says Christ paid the price for our sins on the cross... but doesn't say He DIDN'T descend into Hell. And when the Son of God cries out, My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"... it makes you wonder.
There is also a rather obscure verse in the New Testament (can't remember it right now) that refers to Christ preaching to the spirits in prison after He died on the cross.
My brain is fried for now. More later, maybe.
